Ask Not for Whom the Bell Tolls
74Execution With a Garrote
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No man is an island, entire of itself ... Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. -- John Donne
It's great to be alive, to breathe fresh air, to hear the robins sing and see the rising sun, to be free, to be part of mankind.
Life, despite its trials and tribulations, is joyous; but it also is ethereal, evaporating, sooner or later, into, for the faithful, the heavens.
We Are Not Alone
Each of us lives his own life, but we are not alone. Ultimately, we must take responsibility for our own lives, for how we conduct ourselves in our short sojourn -- for the good and the bad. And each according to his belief, we must one day answer for our actions.
But, being human, we -- all of us -- are governed by what is commonly called "human nature."
When we hit a homerun with the bases loaded, get straight A's in school, make a killing in the stock market, complete a difficult painting or produce an A-one product on the job it's human nature that we feel a sense of pride and accomplishment. When we give a few dollars to the Salvation Army, or to other worthwhile charities, our hearts feel the warmth transmitted by the unknown beneficiaries of our largess.
Basking in Reflected Glory
If a friend or someone in the family hits the million-dollar Lotto, or wins a golf tournament or lands a job as chairman of General Motors, we bask in reflected glory. We didn't do anything, but, nevertheless, we feel good about it; our lives are somehow more meaningful, our spirits are somehow uplifted.
We reflect not only on the accomplishments of ourselves and our contemporaries, but even on those of our forefathers. Somehow we, as humans, are better, have greater intrinsic value, because people like Socrates, da Vinci, Einstein, Washington and Lincoln preceded us. Their lives are intrinsically intertwined with ours; our lives would not be the same had they not lived.
At 12:04 a.m. Tuesday the state of Washington snuffed out the life of Westley Allen Dodd. Dodd, a confessed, convicted child killer, was hanged.
He Chose the Gallows
Under Washington state law, Dodd was given a choice of death by lethal injection or death by hanging; he chose the gallows.
As one observer stated following the execution, Dodd's death will not end murder, rape or mayhem; his hanging will have little effect on such heinous crimes.
Although Dodd opted for hanging -- indeed insisted upon it and demanded that there be no appeals, no stays of execution -- it was not his wishes but those of society that were carried out Tuesday; the preferences of a convicted killer, unless condoned by society, are of little effect.
Reporter Expresses 'Surprise'
The journalist who witnessed Dodd's last moments and reported on them said he thought the execution would be "gruesome," but observed, "the quick and clinical way the state put to death child-killer Westley Allen Dodd today surprised me."
He obviously tried to be objective and detached, as any good reporter would.
But, as a human being, he could not but end his story with the stark, but telling declarative sentence:
". . . When I got back to my motel room, I threw up."
I wrote this column as a "My View" for The Hour newspaperof Norwalk, Conn., on Jan. 9, 1993. Little has changed since then. I now write my views on a wide variety of topics on HubPages. You can, too. It's easy, and free! Get paid for writing about what you love, or whatever interests you!. HubPages makes the technical part easy. Make friends and get help on its active forum. Take a quick tour to see how easy it is to get started today Click Here -- To view my HubPages Profile Click Here
Should capital punishment be outlawed?
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Thank you, David-D. That's the best compliment I've gotten in a long time.
Hi William,
On the subject of capital murder, I'm on the fence about it. On the one hand, when our government sentences someone to death, it sounds like a good idea to be rid of an evil person. However, as you well know, the majority of those sitting on death row sit there for many, many years. We, as taxpayers, are paying to keep them alive. Depending on what prison they are in, some are living the so-called 'good life'. I recently saw one prison that was designed more like a vacation retreat, complete with spas, exercise rooms, computer access, libraries, etc., and it's design would make one drool. All modern, no bars, potted plants, it was sickening. What the hell are they thinking? I've even heard of people who purposely do something wrong just so they can go back to jail or prison, because it's better than their life on the outside. Where else can you go and get a free education, free meals, free medical, a free roof over your head and free clothes?
I also believe as far as appeals go, there should be a limit to only one, or perhaps two the most. The other thing is, what takes so damn long for an appeal to be carried out? Then, to add insult to injury, once the appeal process is done, sometimes the sentence will be overturned and the prisoner is commuted to just life behind bars. My thought is this: if sentenced to death, carry it out within one year, regardless of whether the appeal process is done or not. If the appeal still isn't resolved at the end of one year, oh well. Otherwise, just do away with the death penalty, it makes no sense.
On the other hand, do I believe the death penalty deters crime? Of course not. If the death penalty was enacted to cause fear in people so that they never commit another crime, we'd be living in a crime free society. I don't know what a good solution would be. Keeping someone locked away from society forever so that they can never hurt another person is about the best answer we have, even though it's a drain on the economy and the taxpayer. Rehabilitation is nice in theory, and I don't have statistics, but my thought is that a small majority of lawbreakers ever learn to change their ways, therefore, so many repeat offenders.
I agree with David-D, this is a very thought provoking hub, thank you for sharing it.
Damned if you do and damned if you don't - even if, theoretically, the death penalty makes a lot of sense, finally it's a life. And yet, in countries where there is swift retribution like in the Gulf states, the crime rate is definitely much lower. Yes, it does make one think!
My conception of a prison life is vastly different from what you describe, Trish. Those few who would find prison better than their life outside are in a very bad state indeed. Prisons are very bad places -- for anyone. Those "vacation retreats," or "country clubs" are reserved for people like John Dean and Martha Stewart. Our justice system in the U.S. is antiquated and definitely needs an overhaul. The appeals process developed as it is because good people want to insure that not a single innocent person be put to death. Unfortunately, that has happened many times. The lives of many have been saved by advances in our knowledge of DNA. My views on capital punishment appear in several of hubs, including one, written in 1994, titled "Death Penalty in OJ Trial? Unthinkable!"
Thanks for commenting, Shalini Kagal. In my opinion, killing is never a good thing. While it may reduce the crime rate in the Gulf states, the good people there pay a high price. Capital punishment makes killers of us all. If you want to teach a child not to violent, do whip him to within an inch of his life? Do we teach people that killing is bad by killing killers? I think not.
Another thoughtful Hub by Mr. Torpey!
My state, Michigan, did away with the death penalty more than 100 years ago. Several other states are moving in that direction because of recent evidence that executions of innocent people are unavoidable. Aside from that consideration, the death penalty is a barbaric relic from the past. We are the only advanced country that still practices it. I wish many of the believers in the sanctity of life from the instant of conception would be consistent and support doing away with the death penalty.
I agree! Violence usually begets violence - however,when the crime is closer home, when someone you know and love is affected, then you wonder whether the criminal should be allowed to commit the crime again and maybe yet again. While I don't support the death penalty, circumstances could make people subscribe to it, wouldn't you say?
Well said, Ralph. I agree entirely. The sanctity of life is inclusive, not exclusive: "Any man's death diminishes me."
Being what I have been through in the last year I am of mixed emotions on this subject too Mr Torpey. As usual, you make us think and think. My position as a Christian says it is wrong, but I see such as I see in the world,especially crimes against children says that the death penalty does need to be.
Great hub again William!!
When someone you know and love is affected by violence, Shalini, it's understandable that the reaction is visceral. I'm sure all of us would react that way initially. But it isn't wise to make intellectual judgments vicereally. There are many other considerations, prime among them is the certainty that accused is indeed the guilty party. How we treat the lowliest among us, in my opinion, tells a lot about us as human beings.
Thank you for your comment, Froggy213. Some crimes are heinous, and some criminals are cruel and unrepentent. However, I think that, as human beings, we must separate our emotions from our intellect. We need to think of the affect of the decisions we make on the future, not only of the criminal but of us as well. I don't think we want to stoop to the level of the criminal in the way we react. If we endorse violence by executing criminals, it will send the wrong message. While punishment should fit the crime, capital punishment is inhumane and unwise.
I am definitely with you on this William.
The system is so imperfect and imperfectly applied it's really hard to support it, even if you do believe in capital punishment. Personally, life imprisonment without possibility of parole is a better option. The death penalty is barbaric, is not a deterrent, and ends up clogging our courts with appeal after appearl. So my arguments against it are both philosophical AND practical.
Thank you for this thoughtful piece.
Eventually, Misha, I feel certain the long overdue overhaul of the system will be accomplished. Thanks.
I agree, Mighty Mom. The system is fatally flawed. As it exists now, it could never be put right. Thenk you for your thoughtful and kiind comments.
Well-written and thought provoking. I doubt, if it were me, I would choose hanging over injection. But then maybe I would: I've always been a bit dramatic. Thanks for this quality work (and the link)!
Thank you very much for the kind words, Christoph. I'm not sure whether I would choose hanging or injection if I were faced with execution. I've heard stories of executions going very badly in either case. I believe that most people think that executions always go off as planned, but that isn't necessarily the case.
I have been on the Louisiana and Florida Death Rows to see people waiting to be executed and yes I very strongly believe that the death penalty should be abolished. It does not stop anything and recently there is more and more evidence that we have in fact executed innocent persons.
I interviewed Ted Bundy and talked with him on several occasions and much could have been learned by locking him away in a safe place and studying him. I do not think we accomplished anything by killing him or any other death row inmate.
We are a civilized people or we claim to be in America but we continue practices that makes our nation look like we are living in the dark ages.
The current court system in the USA does not work much less our current death penalty. If you doubt what I say just look at all the innocent people recently released after serving 20 or more years by DNA. And many of the local prosecutors who had locked these people up knew they were innocent when they locked them up. Many local prosecutors had manufactured evidence or ordered people to lie on the stand against these people.
And this is only the tip of the ice berg when you look at the American court system. Every day tens of thousands of people do not show up in court. This in its self is going to eventually make the system collapse.
But we as an American people stand by and let all these things go on and we don't try to do anything to change our current system which does not work. I have been involved in trying to stop the death penalty for a number of years and as long as there is any chance at all that we could possibly execute innocent people then we should not have the death penalty and I will tell you that I truly know and believe that we have executed innocent persons and in recent times. How the American people can allow this is beyond me.
You've obviously been on top of this issue for a long time, crazyhorsesghost, and I congratulate you for your efforts to end capital punishment. Your Ted Bundy hub, which I just read, is well done and very interesting -- as are the many comments you elicited. Thanks.
I believe that state of the art prison (looking like a country club) is in Chicago if I am not mistaken. Amazing! There are many people who will never live with amenities like that.
As to prison in general...I truly believe that if it is to be a place to hopefully make the inmates never wish to return, it should be more like that one in Arizona where they live in tents, wearing pink and listening to only good music. Also if inmates were made to work and at least help subsidize their costs of interrment, that would be an immense help.
If a life sentence really MEANT that...it could be a deterrent. As it is, because it is so expensive to house criminals, many are let out early only to return after commiting more crimes. Sad situation.
I agree with the general principal of eliminating the death penalty especially because of innocent people being put to death. Bad enough if they are unjustly incarcerated!
Very thought provoking hub.
There are several "country club" prisons in the U.S., Peggy W., that apparently are reserved for celebrities or otherwise prominent or wealthy individuals who are not believed to be violent in nature. No prisoner, nowhere, lives in the lap of luxury. Even if it were confinement to a luxurious mansion in the islands, imprisonment is by definition the loss of liberty -- a high price that few of us would want to pay. Imprisonment is not and should not be retribution. It is designed to be confinement for the purpose of protecting the public from further harm. To force men to wear pink or to live in tents would be more like inflicting retribution if not torture. It's human nature to react violently to violence, but if we truly want to end, or at least reduce, violence we are better off finding more intelligent ways to respond to crime and especialy violent crime. While we may, in anger, want to impose capital punishment for especially heinous crimes, we should stop and think before acting rashly. By imposing capital punishment on criminals we are telling society that violence is a reasonable and proper way to respond to serious problems. Is that what we want to teach our children? Imposing capital punishment on those innocents who are convicted in error is especially shameful. I thank you for your thoughtful comments.
Equating capitol punishment with deterrence is a fools argument...Capitol punishment is a just punishment for taking another's life...It is not intended to restrain potential killers, rapists, terrorists...it is an application of justice...I agree, we take too long to provide this justice, and sometimes we may get it wrong, not often, but sometimes...that circumstance has been reduced to a large extent with DNA and other technical advances in criminology science..
I personally believe we spend too much emotional investment on the human trash that decided they would remove someone from this life because they had the power to do so...
Why should we have to provide a glorious gay lifestyle for someone like a Richard Speck that reveled in his imprisonment, after being convicted of killing 6 nurses..? Is that justice..? Sorry, I don't buy into the " intelligent " approach to these scum...
You have presented a strong argument for removing capitol punishment, and I respect your take on this, but your experience and knowledge is quite different than mine. I remain unconvinced that justice would be served without it in place...
The imposition of capital punishment is more about us than it is about criminals, maven101. Killers, rapists and terrorists are depraved. I refuse to become like them and endorse killing -- even if it is deemed to be "legal" or "justified." If we oppose killing by individuals, why would we favor killing by the state? Killing is killing. Favoring capital punishment forces us to teach our children that it is OK to kill if there's a good reason for it. John Donne has it right. Every time we kill via capital punishment we are diminished by the death of that criminal no matter how much we deplore the depravity of the criminal.
William...Using John Donne to support your straw man argument is quite a stretch...you have said " Favoring capital punishment forces us to teach our children that it is OK to kill if there's a good reason for it."...your argument goes from the particular to the general in this assumption...are you saying that there is NEVER an occasion for killing another human being..? If so, you live in a much different world than I, my friend...Larry
It's not so much the world we live in, maven101, but rather the world we'd prefer to live in. Death is inevitable for all of us. We gain nothing by rushing it.
Out of curiosity where do you stand on going to war? Is there ever justification for killing in your opinion other than self defense?
Would you have had us going to war when Hitler was overrunning Europe?
Killing takes all forms for all types of reasons and there seem to be no easy answers.
I realize that I am probably throwing a curve ball into this discussion and taking it away from just the capitol punishment idea of this hub.
War can be defined as the failure of international relations, Peggy. War should always be the solution of last resort, but when it is in self-defense and/or in defense of our friends and neighbors it may be necessary. I believe the U.S. involvement in World War II was a necessary action against Hitler, Mussolini and Tojo was unavoidable and, obviously, very sad indeed. Capital punishment, on the other hand, is neither necessary nor unavoidable. There truly are no easy answers, but we should never kill when there is a better option.
William...When you said " It's not so much the world we live in, maven101, but rather the world we'd prefer to live in. ", were you serious..? Either you believe in justice or you believe in grace...the one is pragmatic, the other Pollyanna..
The reference is not to grace, maven101, but rather to our free will to seek a better world by making better decisions. Do you believe our behavior and actions are without affect?
This is the same circular argument that has one group reaching for the unreachable of ultimate goodness ( human nature intrudes ), and the other group grasping that which is attainable and just...what makes you think your " ideas " are any better than mine..? In what sense are you equating " imagine " with reality..? There's an old Bing Crosby quote, " “There is nothing in the world I wouldn't do for Hope, and there is nothing he wouldn't do for me . . . We spend our lives doing nothing for each other.”... that pretty much sums up my feelings about Hope...Larry
Hi William,
I agree with your last sentence in response to me and hope others would also. "There truly are no easy answers, but we should never kill when there is a better option." That sums up reasonable thinking in my opinion.
Thank you, Peggy. It's always wise to avoid rash, quick, easy decisions. As human beings, we are able to reason -- and we should.
William
There is more than capital punishment in trying to use criminal justice to protect us from the criminals. I think that the consensus is that capital punishment is not a crime deterrent but it should be more uniform across the country.
That lack of uniformity is also a major problem in making criminal justice effective. Murder is murder but across the different venues in the country, the sanctions and the processes eek out different results. It is not just murder but any felony that fails at criminal justice.
What I mean is that the sanctions for felonies including murder run the gamut across different venues. There needs to be a consistency to administering justice. The punishment should fit the crime and no more. This includes all the special circumstance in a case. Leniency should be considered where it is applicable.
The result of this consistency is that murder should always be the most costly to the criminal. Lesser crimes should have a tapering sentence to indicate that the crime is less than a capital crime.
I am probably not be clear about my point. A criminal act where the accused is found guilty and sentenced can result in a wide gap if prosecuted in different venues. This means that the same criminal act under similar circumstances can vary the sentence from say a few years to over twenty years.
This can affect the actions of a criminal engaged in a crime. If that crime is going to result in the twenty year term rather than the two year term, the criminal may aggravate the act if necessary to flee. This could result in murdering a victim of say a robbery. This would be in a case where the punishment for armed robbery is the as for murder. It also could happen if the criminal was on his third strike and going to jail for life.
I believe your point is to remove capital punishment period. Neither jail or the death penalty has worked well as a crime deterrent, but jail in death row has to be a bigger consequence for the criminal to think about. Of course most criminals don't think much, so that argument sinks under its own weight.
The justice system has the basic ingredients to better deter crime, but it needs to use a better and more consistent recipe.
With jails and prisons being over crowded and early release of the inmates is economically stimulated, the system needs to focus on the real bad guys and keep them in there as long as necessary. Privatizing jails and prisons for misdemeanors and non violent felonies should be considered to thin the crowd.
just a thought...
I appreciate your well-reasoned opinion on crime and punishment, opinion duck; however, I am very much opposed to privatization of our prisons. I agree that uniformity of punishment would be desirable, but under the U.S. Constitution the state's rights provision make that extremely difficult. In some cases, federal laws make consistency less likely.
William extremely thought provoking hub. It is my belief that capital punishment serves no purpose other than to satisfy the blood thirst of others. Should we put to death those involved with the execution of an innocent? Should anyone involved in a death be put to death? Where do we stop and who has the ability to define crimes punishable by death.
Thanks for your cogent comment, SOBF. There's no doubt that violence begets violence.
Great hub.I just dont understand people. I dont think i ever will. Some people are filled with so much hate and revenge it scares me.
I believe that those people who are filled with anger, hate and revenge are very unsettled and confused about life. Their insecurity leads them to lash out at others instead of calmly thinking about finding solutions to their problems. It's sort of a mob psychology practiced by an individual.
yes. I loved the comment you made on my killing field hub saying that we are teaching our children that it is ok to murder as long as we feel justified in doing it. I wasnt aloud to really comment or be biased in that article too much. My boss knows how opinionated i am and I wouldnt be aloud to cover or write about executions for the newspaper if I was biased even on hub pages articles. Do you know how badly I wanted to speak what I really thought in response to a certain comment? I know it was the same one that you were responding to indirectly! Great Job!
I appreciate your very kind words, lisa. While I was working for The Hour newspaper, I often told my fellow reporters that I would love to write two articles when I covered controversial meetings or hearings: The objective news account of what went on at the meeting, which is the one that was published, and the subjective story that would inform the public of what "really" happened. I believe the reporter's role is to write objectively (which I've written about in another hub titled "Objectivity Is Possible -- And Vital." But that's why I wrote the columns I've published here as hubs (To tell the "real" story as I see it.) But the subjective story belongs on the editorial pages of the newspaper, not disguised as "news" as we see on many right wing broadcasts.
yes. I remember a time when news was not allowed to be opinionated at all. (taboo) But I noticed a big change when the former Bush Jr. ran for president. All of a sudden all the media were rebublicans (which I am in theory) and pro Bush,(which I am not, although he would be a blast to have a couple of drinks with and just hang out with) downgrading Kerry, who wouldnt even defend himself which makes me believe even more that all presidencies are planned. I lost all respect for television news after this. I never watch the news. If I dont get information from a press release at work, I have no clue as to what is going on in the world. Even here at the enquirer, they are republican and do not cover liberal ideas or stories or even democratic issues. Our own new president, when he is in town, we are not required to see him in person to report of him, but when Bush was here, we were required to be there in person.
The right wing has pretty much taken over the Republican Party in recent history, lisa, as well as radio and television political broadcasting -- although there are some Democratic broadcaster now but the liberals have only a small piece of the broadcasting pie. I understand where you're coming from though, but I've been very disappointed in the Republicans' refusal to call out George W. Bush on his many bad decisions. I only wish we could get back to good, old-fashioned objective journalism.
Revisiting this hub again. We are hearing more and more reports of criminals being released early from prison due to budget shortfalls. And many of them return to their life of crime. This is a disgrace! Why is it that non-violent people have to be imprisoned at all? If they were made to do many hours of community service (depending upon their crime as to the appointed hours) wouldn't this be a more reasonable sentence? It would keep the space inside of existing prisons available for the ones who would do bodily harm to people on the outside...and they would no longer have to be released early. One other thing...a life sentence should mean just that...and it does not, at least in Texas. Many jurors do not realize that.
The problem, I think, Peggy, is that these decisions are made in some ivory tower. The whole system needs an overhaul. When is the last time we've been asked what we think about it? As the old saying goes, "The punishment should fit the crime." In my opinion, only violent criminals should be in prison. Embezzlers, dope addicts and the myriad other crimes should entail community service (beyond what is done now.) Instead of jail, those convicted should be required to spend a certain amount of time using whatever talents they have to help society (whether it's bookkeeping, management, labor or whatever is determined by the court.) Right now community service is too limited. At the same time, those convicted could be supervised (with ankle bracelets, if necessary) and made to report to the court regularly. These things could be worked out. I guess what we really need is a Congressional Committee to get the ball rolling by holding nationwide hearings on the subject. This is what we pay public servants for -- where are they? Leaving it up to prosecutors and the courts is getting us nowhere.
This was a very sobering piece for me to read, but thank you for writing it. I watched a movie called "The hangman" with my husband once and I felt much like the journalist you describe. I also believe that some crimes are so incredibly heinous that I am left still wondering if it isn't a just reward for those crimes. Thank you.
I very much appreciate your thoughtful comment, mwatkins. Your comment, I think, gets to the core of the problem. It is human nature to have a visceral reaction to any heinous crime and to having feelings of revenge. The conflict in our thinking, I believe, when we realize that those feelings of revenge run counter to our own standards of behavior. What we really want, I think, is justice, not revenge. Capital punishment doesn't accomplish anything. Instead it aggravates the problem. What we really need to do, I think, is to prevent the offender from repeating the crime and, at the same time, discourage others from such offensive behavior. Without respect for all life, I don't think we achieve true civilization.
Premeditated cold blooded killers and known serial killers should all be put to death, that is my conviction. All other killings, manslaughter and second degree killings should be examined carefully. I am for capital punishment when proof is 100% that he/she is guilty of cold first degree premeditated killings. Why should victims have to live with the knowledge that the guilty party is being taken care of in a prison on tax payers money. It's a sham and the justice system is wrong and overflowing with inmates who should have been buried a long time ago. As in Truman Capote novel of the true story of two men who took innocent lives. They were HUNG for their ugly crime and so they should have been.
Cold-blooded killers are despicable, saddlerider1. Anger and the desire for revenge is a natural reaction, but if one takes time to think it should be obvious that behaving in the same manner as the criminal is not the answer. We should not condone violence -- even against criminals -- because it only makes violence an acceptable means of redressing grievances. I read "In Cold Blood" many years ago, but what has society gained from the hangings? Their deaths and those of all the others that have suffered capital punishment have done nothing to reduce such wanton killings and never will. There's no question, however, that our prison system desparately needs reform. The movement toward privatization of prisons is very unfortunate and must be reversed.
WTF,
crime n punishment go together or should I know of folks - that have said prison is more like summer camp and is not a deterant...
TH
The punishment should fit the crime, tom hellert. I've never been in prison, but I can tell you affirmatively that prison (even the "country clubs") is not summer camp. Neither prison nor capital punishment is a deterrent to crime. If prison were a deterrent you wouldn't see the kind of recitivism rate that exists. Capital punishment, by its nature, teaches that killing is OK as long as you have a good reason -- but there never is a good reason to kill anyone.
I see much has been said on this subject. My feelings are... It seems like the death penalty is many times given when there is kinda of a doubt, or the Killer? only killed one person. What about when there is no doubt and the killer has wasted a whole bunch of victims? Then I think justice would be served with a quick execution. That monster just doesn't deserve to live. We don't want it back on the streets. There are just some people without a conscience. To call it an animal is an insult to the animals. Why let it live, cost us money, possibly escape (it has happened) Will the death penalty stop people from killing? It will stop that killer from killing.
Aside from the fact that your example is a rare case, litlestarr, capital punishment affects a far greater number of those convicted of capital crimes. I don't like anyone who kills any more than you do, but as much as we don't approve of their behavior they are human beings albeit very undesirable people. When we call them "animals" and "monsters" and fail to acknowledge they are human beings we denigrate ourselves as well. To feel anger at their crime is natural, but as human beings we have the capacity to think logically instead of behaving like animals ourselves. As John Donne said, "Any man's death diminishes me."
mr. Torpey,
there is no recitivism bydead criminals. If you take a life you should forfit your own-Accidental deaths are the exceptions-Accidents being the key part point blank rane shooting to the head are NOT accidents they show intent and a disregard for life,if they dont care -why should we care about them?
It's not so much that we care about them,Jake Spence, but we care about ourselves. Because criminals show a disregard for life do you really think that we should mimic them and ourselves show an equal disregard for life? You ask why we should care. We should care because we are better than them. We care about life; about all life, but especially about human life. You don't show respect for human life, by taking human life -- neither despicably as the criminal does nor carelessly as the state does by taking human life through capital punishment laws.
Bill I understand where you are coming from. But I do believe capital punishment is a deterrent. And as I said that killer will not kill again. If I were a cop, they wouldn't make it to the court room. I probably would not last to long. When a killer tortures and kills, he doesn't deserve respect. Most of the time the excursion is a lot more merciful than what the victim suffered. The jails are so full they are releasing what is considered "less guilty?" prisoners to make room. Now I ask you is that any way to run a prison?
We live under a Constitution that aims to protect us all from unjust government power, litlestarr, including overreaching by police. We don't want cops replacing the justice system. Nor do we want to mimic the behavior of deranged killers. There are ways to keep such killers from killing again. Capital punishment is cruelty on our part and works to make killing more acceptable socially -- meaning the killer won't kill again but others will because we have thereby endorsed killing as a tool of government.
I'll remember that when I'm in a dark alley with a killer that got his wrist slapped and is loose to kill again. I don't know what happened to those 2 nuts around the Washington dc area that went around taking pop shots at people for the hell of it. And they are not alone this is happening more and more, because they get away with it. Sorry but yes, I'm angry. The government can kill in war, well this is war against crime. It's just Senseless killing, and that nonsense about someone being mentally incompetent, is BS, I believe someone that kills (not counting self defense, war etc) has got to be a bit unbalanced. I get angry at people but don't go shoot them. Most people control their anger short of killing someone that irritates them. And the thing about being ignored and picked, well most of us have been there at some time. Kids were always teasing about what ever. It's back to not taking responsibility and blaming someone else as people are doing more and more. Sorry but I don't think I will change my mind on this I think we have got to get tougher on crime. The streets are becoming unsafe. I mean road rage is another whole thing lately, if you cut off someone in traffic, they come over and shoot you. REALLY!
You can't end crime by doing the same thing criminals do,litlestarr. Anger and violence is the very thing we're trying to eliminate. Capital punishment won't end it.
you are right there will still be evil people around, but it would get rid of a few. So what do you suggest? We just let them run wild? My family and I have been robbed and none of them caught. I don't have money to throw away, these things have a nerve breaking into people's homes etc... and that's the lessor stuff unless someone gets in their way and gets killed. We can't just keep putting people in prison, gets expensive ya know. Then they get parole and get out and start all over. Maybe you are nicer than I am.
Easy answers are rarely good answers, litlestarr. There is little punishment more severe than taking away one's liberty. Whippings, torture and capital punishment may make you feel like you are accomplishing something, but in reality it accomplishes nothing. What needs to be done is to keep criminals from repeating their crimes. Prison deprives criminals of their liberty. They do not need to be tortured. They need to be prevented from performing further criminal acts. If they are not violent, they need to repay society by using whatever talent or skills they have to serve society.
Bill you are nice person, and I know that you would be traumatized, as would I, if you lost your freedom. The problem, in my opinion, is the really bad guys/gals do not think with a social brain. They don't care! Many of them are sociopaths, which I'm sure you know means they have no conscience. Normal people do not think like they do, and that's a lot of the problem. I could get into the fact that the disappearance of a stable family, the absence of moral teachings, the lack of responsibility and a zillion other social problems in the so called civilized nations have contributed to an increase in crime worldwide. I'm sure you will remember when Mary Mount disappeared in New Canaan. Way back then it was a shocker in the area. Now kids are missing everywhere and we take it with a grain of salt. Got to research that phase. And the term "gone missing" I started to notice that with Laci Peterson's murder. Don't remember it previously. It sounds like the missing person made themselves "go missing" Anyhow it appears we have different mind sets on punishment. One day at noon I was walking back to my office, about a block from the bank. Some thing jumped out of a car grabbed my purse and pushed me down. Jumped back into the car, he wasn't the driver, and was gone. This wasn't a back alley at night, it was a busy city street. I was lucky I wasn't hurt. But what a nerve, I could never imagine doing something like that. Of course he wasn't caught, at least not for robbing me. I'd gone to the bank to deposit a check. Took about $40 cash from it and had put that into my coat pocket. So all they got in cash was a few cents in the bottom of my purse. But I had the aggravation of canceling all my cards, etc... plus my house keys were in the purse, so I called Cheryl who was home with the kids and warmed her. I called police and the next day went to BPD and spent a couple of hours looking through a couple of boys of a bunch of sorry looking human beings. I spent 2 weeks on a jury of a murder trial. The facts we heard we thought he was innocent. At the end of the 2nd week the judge stopped the trial and said the guy had "copped a plea" we probably would have let him walk, because we didn't "hear" all the facts. How come the jury only gets part of the story? I won't even touch OJ, and Casey Anthony. Sorry to babble on here, but seems like the bad guys are winning.
We have many problems in our society, litlestarr, and we all need to work on improving conditions for everyone. Those poor souls that you refer to need lots of help, but capital punishment certainly is not the answer. What truly is needed is "justice for all."
Yeah, and even maybe some justice for the victims. BTW just curious, at the top of this article there is a picture of a black man in a chair. When I really looked at it, it appears there are a group of black men surrounding him. Obviously they are not from the KKK.
I've added a caption to picture, litlestarr. The photo is here simply to illustrate the cruelty of capital punishment.
Cruelty of capital punishment, really! Have you read about the Tate murders Ted Bundy, School shootings, those victims have got to be terrified, how about these nuts that kidnaps girls and hold them for years? Garrido, 58, and his wife, Nancy, 54 Then there was Elizabeth Smart. There is case after case http://www.cleveland.com/nation/index.ssf/2010/11/ of cruelty to victims. I don't want to hear about cruelty of capital punishment. These days, they get a needle and go to sleep, just like when we have surgery. Only we wake up they don't.
Killing a human being is cruel, litlestarr, whether it's a violent criminal or Mother Teresa. You have a totally incorrect view of how capital punishment is carried out. Perhaps you would like to view capital punishment being administered in person -- or pull the switch yourself. It is definitely not like going "to sleep."
I'm sorry but I can not feel sorry for a sicko that tortures and kills. Someone that takes a child and rapes and brutally kills, no, nothing will convince me that devil should get mercy. Perhaps God can pardon and forgive, But He's God. I'm only human. And to say there is no difference between Mother Teresa and a evil killer, nah, I can't agree. Are telling me if some sicko had one of your daughters and was hurting her and the only way to stop him from killing say Beth is if you killed him, you wouldn't pull the trigger if you had a gun?
You are not expected to feel sorry, Linda, for any criminal -- or madman. Executing a wanton criminal endorses killing as a way of solving difficult problems. Aside from being abhorrent to any civilized person, capital punishment sets a very bad precedent and teaches our children that killing is OK as long as you fell justified in taking someone's life. Sometimes, as in war, there is little or no option, but that is different from killing criminals or anyone else as a means of punishment. Killing is killing, Linda, whether it is Mother Teresa or Jack the Ripper. Attempting to stop an attacker, as in your example, is totally different. Whatever happened to "Thou Shalt Not Kill?"
Bill, I disagree,in The commandment "thou shalt not kill" (found in the KJV Bible translation of Exodus 20:13), is better understood in the New King James Version Bible which states:
"You shall not murder." (Exodus 20:13, NKJV throughout) I think the message would be if you murder someone you hang or what ever method. The killing of the murderer is a lot less violent than the victim suffered.
oh dear :( what a sad world we live in
yup, Leptirela I do agree
David-D 4 years ago
This makes one think.